Most difficult race and why

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Most difficult race and why

Post by Lordofoaka on Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:08 pm

Difficulty in a game is the margin of error they are allowed in a window of time with the added factor of mechanical intelligence required in order to complete the task in the first place. The smaller the margin of error in the same window of time, the more difficult. The more mechanical intelligence required such as factor knowledge and dynamics, the more difficult the task increases. Potential does not equal and is only relevant because the potential in a window of time that is allowed.

Humans have 30 average years they will live if they play safe. Angels have 150 average years they will live if they play safe. Demons have 10 average years they will live if they play safe. Human gains are x1. Angel gains are x0.5. Demon gains are x2. Because of these factors, the maximum potential power in the life of these races are as follows.

Humans = 30 years of gains
Angels = 150 years of gains
Demons = 20 years of gains

But wait, there is more. Angels also have a factor that makes their stats more powerful by ranking up. Angels can rank up if they don't hurt humans or if they go around hurting demons. The strength of the demon doesn't matter, but, the quantity of the demon and its rank will matter. This puts an angels years of gains, the term used to tell the total power potential a race will have, up to 300 years of games because their maximum rank they can reach by playing safe gives them a 4x stats multiplying which stacks on their 0.5 gains to equal a x2 multiplier. Congradulations angels.

Humans = 30 years of gains
Angels = 300 years of gains
Demons = 20 years of gains

But wait, there is more. If everyone was to reach their maximum potential while playing safe, after 20 years in game, demons time is over and demons will get passed by humans and angels together. This means that demons are now going to have a fair chance with humans and angels. For a demon to gain 5 years, they have to consume someones soul and digest the soul. Digestion takes 2 years, giving the player 3 years to enjoy. This means if a demon wants to live forever, they have to fight each year in a battle that has a 50% chance of failure if it is with a stranger. To be immortal, the demon has to fight once each year because the digestion time. For a demon to gain rank which would add up to 80 extra years on the initial ten years, they have to beat an angel that is stronger then them. They have to do this four times to get the total 80 years. Keep in mind that players will play it safe if they knew their deaths were permanent. For a demon to gain years of gains, they have a 6.25% chance of gaining 80 years on their life, which is 160 years of gains on the 20 years of gains they already have. Angels just have to live, as well as humans, in order to rank up. By the time a player dies twice on the same account from old age as an angel, 300 years would of past and the server would already be getting a wipe according to what Smd said about how long until he would wipe the server.

Humans = 30 years of gains
Angels = 300 years of gains(All they have to do is be patient and play it safe)
Demons = 20 years of gain with a 6.25% chance of gaining 160 years of gain and a 50% chance divided by the number of times they will raise their years of gains by 10 (10 because in gaining 5 years, their multiplier is x2).

Demons, humans, and angels who do will not be a special rank, will thus be able to reference the above. Angels literally don't have to do a damn thing for 300 years of gains. How much does a demon have in chance to equal the same number of years of gains as that as an angel? Watch. the demon gains 180 years of gains in a 6.25% of gambling against "angels", which after certain years will be the most powerful race in the server from just playing. 10 years of gains = 50% gambles to get someones soul. Keep in mind that I am not including the special ranks. That is 12x 50% gambles. So in total for a demon and angels life to equal the same power near the end of their life, a demon has to beat 16 people, 4 being stronger angels then the demon, and then eat their souls.

Therefore the odds of a demon to be the same power of an angel that just played the game safe is 1/65536. What does this mean?  Angels do nothing and gain divinity and rank. An angel will rank up for attacking nobody for ten years. Humans will never be able to beat an angel that has lived a long live.

This means the easiest race to be is an angel.

Humans will be able to beat demons near the end of their life, but, have to wait twenty years in order to do so. Humans are beat by demons an entire 2/3rds of their life. 1/4 demons will live as long as the average human will live, but, 1/2 demons will become as strong as humans will ever be able to be. To make matters more complicated, demons of lust will be able to mate and hide their race, stealing 5 years of a humans life and giving it to themselves. For demons to gain 5 years from this, it is currently bugged and doesn't work. Once it is fixed, this might increase the way demons can get years, but, not all demons are lust demons and people have to log into another account in order to be the baby. This would not be a frequent thing and if it became one, the person would be abusing.

This means that humans are the most difficult race to play as.

Now for the final review-
-Easy Mode: Angels
-Medium Mode: Demons
-Suffer Mode: Human

Visual Perspective-
-Angels


-Humans

Lordofoaka

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Re: Most difficult race and why

Post by renowner on Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:20 pm

I think you've got it completely backwards.  Do you have any idea how long it will take for angels to rank up? It takes ten years for the first rank up. and they have to rank up twice to be even equal to humans. Pre-ascension.  And there's no "Playing it safe." The only decent way to train is to spar, and you have to leave the safe zone to do that. RP. and find materials. Demons will eclipse all races early on, and continue to at the very worst be equal to the other races as they slowly rise. Demons have by far the longest possible decline, and as such could play safe THEMSELVES, and just eat a random person every so often, sparring and remaining op.   The only reason you're thinking this right now, is because most people are AFKing on the server, demons are very bugged, and year speed is incredibly fast. And you're a demon.  I still think angels are the hardest to play by far. Humans and demons being about equal difficulty, depending on the playstyle of the user. IF you can bring yourself to constantly grow powerful and kill people to promote yourself, demon will be easy. If you're more of a peaceful kinda guy, human will be easier. the instant demons actually try to attack people or make groups, is the instant you'll see how strong they get. Oras are also about to be much harder to master, and with it, human ascension. (Which makes them about as strong as demons, perhaps slightly stronger or weaker depending on what Gluscap does with it.)

So in short, I still say angels are the hardest to survive as, and reach their potential. Demons are the easiest to reach their potential, and humans are about midway. Easy without a lot of evil in the world, but as soon as there is, it will be difficult to survive long enough to reach the zenith of their racial abilities. Angel especially so.


Besides. The whole point of the game is to live hard, get strong, die, and eventually further the cycle of life. Likely becoming a child with slightly higher mods, eventually getting slightly higher stats, and continuing that in an endless cycle. Demons who die young, but strong and make an impact on life don't have a weakness. They've lived to their fullest, and embraced the whole point of the rp game as a whole.
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Re: Most difficult race and why

Post by Lordofoaka on Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:44 pm

So basically you too long didn't read my comment. You use a strawman argument to give people the wrong idea about what I mean by play it safe. You don't have to spar and train until after it is easy to beat shield and dark forks hell spawns. You didn't account for any of the things I accounted for in my post and you certainly didn't have the time to actually read and reply to my post entirely, only the first part. The document wasn't made long because I like to rant, but, made long because you have to read the entire thing to understand exactly what I was getting at.

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Re: Most difficult race and why

Post by Kaizen on Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:58 pm

I do not agree with your point of view, if you're a demon you can select homes Evils that each selection has a bonus the player:

A demon if you choose the right home can be born with an age of death for 20 years ... Others may have 5% more of their statistics ... You can improve the requirements of each absorbed soul, among others houses that give rewards. .

Just because a demon has little time to live will not want to say it will be a difficult race to play, a demon in much less time you can get to his promotion if the is proposed, an angel should be careful who attacks or who kill because if you kill a player that is not no devil or demon blood lose points divinity that these points cost much time to raise them again if playing in safe areas, I have obtained a promotion but it was around a week game to reach that ascent and so will be harder still growing ...

A demon will have more requirements in each ascent but their stats will rise exponentially in their training ie 4 hours of pure training (Spar mode) can achieve reach an angel who has been playing three days or more so and have done the calculations.

A human can reach their rise with time and playing his confident style, have a longer life than a demon but less than that of an angel, but keep in mind all races have their difficulties in obtaining a promotion.

Also in the future the game If it does get much more traffic users this will have a greater number of opportunities to raise their promotions, now is not the story evolve as the game is in alpha version ... So I still can not get at this point the subject, still needs more time and more game ..

Greetings.

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Re: Most difficult race and why

Post by renowner on Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:17 pm

Well said, Kaizen.
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Re: Most difficult race and why

Post by Gluscap on Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:19 pm

You wouldn't know this because I've been slacking with placing all the proper info on the forums but Humans have ascension. For mastering their level 4 ora (getting 200/300 aura mastery), they get ascension level 1. This gives them pretty much 1.7x stats. It would be like if their gains were 1.7x the whole time. Plus they get 20 decline for the first ascension. Their final ascension requires you to kill a rank 5 demon or angel, gives you a 3.5x boost for ascension (it isn't added onto the previous 1.7x, just the 1.7x is increased to 3.5x) and twenty more decline.

With that in mind, its time to evaluate race difficulty. Though I coded the game, I have no clue how race difficulty will actually be. I'm waiting for feedback so I can properly adjust the numbers. What I wanted to be is like so;

In terms of what you have to do to reach the "end game fantasy", this is how the races are ranked;

Angels - Easiest, they just have to do nothing for 90 years.
Demons - They've got it a lot worse than angels. They have to absorb a rank 5 angel to become a rank 5 demon. Even then, they don't get any boost of power. They have to make full use of their decline training to be strong.
Humans - They have to kill a rank 5 demon or angel. I don't really see this happening often, maybe once every few generations. They have a max of 55 years and a 1.7x ascension mod to work with at max. Most level 5 demons/angels will be much stronger than them.

In terms of end-game power, here is how they stack up against one another;

Humans - 3.5x ascension power. This allows them to easily eclipse everyone else. Humans can only live up to a max of 75 years though, not counting things like life elixers.

Angels - Although during the endgame they're pretty much on the same level of demons in terms of gains(2x), they've got more decline to work with.

Demons - Same gains as endgame angels, but less decline. They can potentially have more decline than angels.

For demons, absorbing souls becomes less and less effective as you do it. The power of the soul your absorbing does equate to how much its worth though. Any lower than 20% of your power though, and you'll get nothing(it won't allow you to absorb, it won't go on CD). The CD is currently sitting at 0.5 for digestion.

Who knows how it will actually play out, though. Demons will obviously want to rank up, so angels must always be on the lookout for people after them. Especially high-ranking ones. Demons and Angels both will probably grow scared of humans out of the potential power they can gain from killing them at their strongest. Humans have to watch out for demons trying to kill them, or even rogue angels.

This isn't even taking into account the multiple crossbreeds. They're playable, but not really viable unless both their parents were high ranking though so I'm not even going to bother with them.
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Re: Most difficult race and why

Post by renowner on Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:31 pm

Crossbreeds are going to be useless then? Or will they obtain the powers of ascended humans/rank boosted angels too? I was hoping there could be a genetics system, where they inherit the racial rank ups/ascensions from one of the parents, but inherit the hp/mana from the other parent, and then their mods play out based on some formula that balances it out with the ascension/rank up rates from both parents.


1.7x for ascension also seems a bit weak, considering how its going to be a lot more difficult to master to Ora 4 now apparently. Maybe ascension can boost their mana slightly as well, so they can maintain higher level Oras for longer, to make up for the lack of power? (Much like Angels. And I like to think of human ascension them becoming more divine, ect. )
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Re: Most difficult race and why

Post by Gluscap on Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:18 pm

Buffs work differently than ascension power and divinity power.

For example;

str = str

With a buff like ora, it'll buff STR like so;

str = str + ((str * orabuff) - str)

Divinity and Ascension bonus' buff everything.

str = str * divinitypower

or if you're using an ora

str = (str + ((str * orabuff) - str)) * divinitypower

It makes it so you've been gaining at 1.7x rate the whole time. Thats just 0.3x lower than what demons have. Angels don't have anywhere near that until they're rank 4, which gives then an effective 1.5x rate.

Crossbreeds are strong if their parents are strong. A rank 5 demon having a baby with another rank 5 demon will birth a rank 5 demon. Rank 5 demon with a Ascension 2 Human will birth a Hanyou with 75 - 105 decline, 4x gainrate and absorb (not nearly as effective as demons' absorb, though).

An unascended human + rank 1 demon is going to birth a hanyou with 25-35 decline, lesser absorb and a 1.5x gainrate. Keep in mind that gainrate for crossbreeds are unraisable.
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Re: Most difficult race and why

Post by renowner on Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:02 pm

Interesting.  Also divinity power doesn't change ANYTHING in the scheme of things, except your overall gain rate. Those formulas seem unnecessary, though I am still glad you included them, it really doesn't change how stats would end up anyway.  For example, let's say you had ten strength. if you multiplied base strength by divinity level first, you'd have 17 strength. ora 5 would be 3.5x that for 59.5x strength.  that formula you put would make (10 x 3.5 ) * 1.7

ends up to 35 x 1.7. which is still 59.5.  
A rank five demon seems to outclass a human in every way except mana, unless god forbid a human goes god mode ascension two on their asses.  Which I guess makes sense. The difference in gain rates though will add up.


Later on i'm sure we'll be filled with ungodly broken sub races, and well bread main races!
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Re: Most difficult race and why

Post by Gluscap on Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:29 pm

It does add up to the same, in the case of just one buff. Anger, Sinew, Focus, etc can add up.

If you're angry and using an ora;

usedstr = (str + ((angrybooost * str) - str) + ((str * orabuff) - str)) * divinitypower

If your strength is 30, angerboost is 1.5 and orabuff is 2, divinity power is 3 then you get 225. If they were all just multiplied you would get 270. If divinity power was calculated like every other buff, you'd get even less than 225. Thats why divinity boost/ascension boosts are not like regular buffs. They're much more effective when you're using multiple boosts.


Last edited by Gluscap on Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Most difficult race and why

Post by renowner on Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:27 pm

That implies focus actually scales with ora or anything else, and isn't just a static increase based on your base. I have 270,000 dex. My focus is as good as its ever going to get since it resets back to 1.5x every time I relog past, with still ungodly drain. so I hit around 410,000 dex using it. Ora 5, I get around 900,000 dex. With focus, I get 1,035,000. making focus basically useless anyway. I also can't test with anger since mine doesn't actually work anymore.

I'll wait to see what happens when there's more buffs and such later on then.
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Re: Most difficult race and why

Post by Gluscap on Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:36 pm

All buffs are calculated as

usedstat = ((basestat * buff) - basestat)

The STR used in the equations isn't the same STR values. usedstat is what is used in damage equations.
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Re: Most difficult race and why

Post by renowner on Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:51 pm

Can't say I really understood the implications there. IT sounds like buffing your stats with an Ora at that point doesn't increase damage, since your used stat is the only thing, and that's just base times buff. and since buffs don't scale with Ora, that means the two are mutually exclusive.
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Re: Most difficult race and why

Post by Gluscap on Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:26 pm

All buffs scale with is basestats, but not one another. Having 2,3,4 etc buffs on at the same time will not affect the amount of stats each buff gives you. Divinity and Ascension scale with everything, the more buffs you've got out at the same time, the more the Divinity/Ascension Multiplier is worth. Why? Because its literally just increasing the benefits of each buff by the divinity/ascension multiplier. If you were getting 140,000 from focus, you would get 238,000 from focus instead if your ascension bonus is 1.7. If you were getting 630k dex from using your ora, you would now get 1,260,000 from it. The main point was that Ascension and Divinity bonus' aren't calculated like regular buffs. Whatever your Ascension/Divinity mod is, is the amount it'll increase your stats by.
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Re: Most difficult race and why

Post by renowner on Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:16 am

My point is that all it effectively is, is a stat increase. For every 1 stat point you would've gotten, you've actually gotten 1.7. It isn't anything you can us to your advantage. Your gain rate is effectively 1.7x. there's no way to use your divinity/ascension bonuses to somehow get your Ora or buffs to transcend the same person with 2x gains and no ascension or divinity with the same base stats and the same buffs/ora's up. You'll always be 1.7x, to his 2x. (in the case of human ascension.) So I guess that's where I got confused, since with all the diagrams and speach, it just sounds like divinity is in and of itself, special. And although it is, how it behaves relative to your stats is simple. You just effectively have 1.7 stats per 1 stat you would normally get. your gain rate increases as a result, your stats increase as a result, and the amount you get from buffs and Ora increase as a result. Focus is still effectively useless as is, with 32 drain, and only a 50% BASE Ora boost.


Its also very possible I Just misunderstood this completely and am still wrong.
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